Hot for Teacher - Epilogue

Following up on the story involving Pamela Turner, the 28-year-old teacher who had sex with one of her 13-year-old male students: She was just sentenced to 9-months jail and 8-years probation.

More photos of the teacher that lucky little punk got here.

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From the actual story: "But

From the actual story:

"But it's my understanding there are some long-term effects for male victims in this kind of situation," he says.

Constant high fives from other males, for one.

Thanks for the link on the

Thanks for the link on the Pam Turner Pics......I will be linking to you for the update on the story .... : )
:cool:

"High fiiiiive!" (in Borat

"High fiiiiive!" (in Borat voice)

If the sexes had been

If the sexes had been reversed, male teacher and female student, would we be seeing these lighthearted jokes?

From a comment to a previous post:

"Frankly this is a situation in which it’s very different for girls. You won’t find too many people arguing that its ok for teachers in their 20s or 30s to be seducing girls under 16 or 18. That is close to real rape even if the girl thinks that she’s consenting."

Is this double standard really defensible?

A thought: Since men are fertile for a much longer time than women, then if we pair up the average fertile man with the average fertile woman, the man will be older.

Of course there's an obvious reason for the double standard: the female risks pregnancy and the male carries no immediate risk. However, in the current legal environment the man is in a way more at risk than the woman. The woman has the option of aborting or not, and that man has no say. If the woman chooses not to abort, then the man is legally obligated to provide financially.

Finally, if contraception is used, then the pregnancy angle is moot, so that reason for the double standard vanishes, and what we have left is, perhaps, mere atavistic notions about sexuality and gender and age.

Constant, there is a double

Constant, there is a double standard, but there is no reason to think that, in order to fix the inconsistency, we should oppose female adults having sex with male teens, rather than not opposing male adults having sex with female teens.

What the hell are you

What the hell are you talking about? Of course the double standard's acceptable. Men and women are not the same. I read it in a biology book.

And Ghertner, when I have

And Ghertner, when I have kids, you stay the hell away from my daughters.

Kennedy: If anything it’s

Kennedy:

If anything it’s vice. Scbools should be free to ban her as the see fit and that’s about the end of it.

Well, it's clear that wildly unethical sexual conduct with students is, by itself, just a vice, not a crime. It's not nearly so clear that adults sleeping with 8th graders ought to be considered merely a vice; if you think that the youth of one of the "partners" and the age difference between them substantially undermines the ability to give consent, then the adult would be guilty of rape.

I happen to think that it ought to be considered criminal, but there are understandable arguments to the contrary; questions of consent, childhood, and adolescence are usually pretty vexed. The point, though, is there are good reasons to consider it vicious no matter what answer you give to the question of whether or not it ought to be considered criminal (because it's sleazy and exploitative).

And all libertarians who

And all libertarians who oppose the drug war are really stoners in disguise. :roll:

And Ghertner, when I have

And Ghertner, when I have kids, you stay the hell away from my daughters.

Actually I'd be afraid to even be in the same room as Micha. You never know when he might start consuming human flesh, stripping naked, calling his broker to sell stock in his children, engaging in polyamory, or drinking his own pee on the basis that he's not 100% certain of the basis of the "social norms" against such activities. :end:

If the teen has the capacity

If the teen has the capacity to give meaningful consent, then how is it vice, sleazy, or exploitive?

Is it exploitive for college professors to sleep with college students?

I get the impression whenever demand of X for a good exceeds the supply Y of the good, then 'exploitation' has occurred. Or in capitalism generally. Something like that.

If the teen has the capacity

If the teen has the capacity to give meaningful consent, then how is it vice, sleazy, or exploitive?

Is it exploitive for college professors to sleep with college students?

Rad, Arguments for "age

Rad,

Arguments for "age difference" alone don't hold water. Else, Anna Nicole Smith would have been "exploited" when she hooked up with that 90-year old geezer. Social prejudices aside, it's a question of consent and ability to consent.

I'd also note that if a male

I'd also note that if a male teacher had been having sex with a thirteen year old student he might well do hard time instead of nine months.

But you’d be just fine

But you’d be just fine with him fucking your 13 year old sons?

I'm reasonably certain Micha doesn't swing that way, so that warning seemed unnecessary.

Scott, I assume you're

Scott, I assume you're joking. Folks who would like to roll back the political progress of women visavis men would love your argument.

Micha: Constant, there is a

Micha:

Constant, there is a double standard, but there is no reason to think that, in order to fix the inconsistency, we should oppose female adults having sex with male teens, rather than not opposing male adults having sex with female teens.

Of course there's a reason to think that. The reason is that it's sleazy to fuck 8th graders less than half your age.

It's also worth noting that age is not the only fact that needs to be considered in this case, anyway. Whatever their ages, it's also wildly unethical for teachers to have sex with their students--whether or not the students consent.

(N.B.: I'm taking no stand, for the moment at least, on whether either of these should be considered a crime, or merely a vice; I'm just saying that they are wrong. If these reasons are not intuitive enough, I can talk about it some more, but really "Hey, don't fuck 13 year olds" seems on its face like a pretty reasonable rule for adults to follow.)

Scott:

What the hell are you talking about? Of course the double
standard's acceptable. Men and women are not the same. I read it in a biology book.

I hear that blue-eyed people and brown-eyed people have discernable genetic differences, too. The question is what specific differences you think there are that would justify a double standard on this count.

And Ghertner, when I have kids, you stay the hell away from my daughters.

But you'd be just fine with him fucking your 13 year old sons?

I fully admit my internal

I fully admit my internal double-standard.

I'd be angry if my 13-year-old son/daughter was getting it on with his/her much older teacher.

But when I think of myself, back at the raging hormonal age of 13, getting seduced by what is essentially Victoria Secret model material... well, you know the rest. This is why many guys can 'relate' (for lack of a better word) with the 13-year-old in this Pamela Turner case.

But these sorts of double standards aren't exactly uncommon when it comes to one's own self vs. one's flesh n' blood offspring. I bet there are plenty of things where someone would say, "Man, I'd love to [fill in the blank], but I'd flip if my kid did it."

Doug, I'm sure many 13 year

Doug,

I'm sure many 13 year old girls would like to bang their teachers too, it's just not as socially acceptable to say so after the fact.

Rad,

If anything it's vice. Scbools should be free to ban her as the see fit and that's about the end of it.

Kennedy: "I'd also note that

Kennedy: "I'd also note that if a male teacher had been having sex with a thirteen year old student he might well do hard time instead of nine months."

I agree. The difference in treatment is indefensible. The crime ought to be punished equally severely, or equally leniently, whatever the gender of the older and younger "partners."

Lopez: "Arguments for 'age difference' alone don’t hold water."

Indeed. Which is why both age difference and the youth of one of the "partners" was mentioned above. A substantial age difference is a necessary but not a sufficient condition for what I said to apply. (It's necessary because there's an awful lot less reason to think that another 13 year old is sleazy for sleeping with a 13 year old than to think that a 28 year old is.)

Ghertner: "If the teen has the capacity to give meaningful consent, then how is it vice, sleazy, or exploitive?"

Because there are more vices than there are crimes, in sexual ethics as in all other kinds of ethics. Fulfilling your obligation not to rape anybody is important, but why would you think that there aren't any other moral obligations that you have? If you think (as, indeed, you should) that sexual relationships ought to take place within something at least vaguely resembling a context of equality, reciprocity, and mutual responsibility, then there are plenty of good prima facie reasons to think that 28 year olds who sleep with 13 year olds are pretty sleazy.

N.B.: I don't think that it's usually true that a 13 year old has the capacity to give meaningful consent to a sexual encounter with an adult twice their age. But you can apply the above at whatever age you like, depending on where you think the age of meaningful consent is and where you think the age is at which sexual encounters with much older adults stop being sketchy.

Ghertner: "Is it exploitive for college professors to sleep with college students?"

I'm not quite sure what you're asking.

If you're asking about students who they encounter in an academic setting (e.g. in their classes or in their departments), then yes, of course it's unethical for professors to sleep with those students. If this isn't obvious, it ought to be.

If you're asking about students and professors who happen to meet each other without having any particular academic relationship to one another, then I don't know whether it's sleazy for the professor to sleep with the student or not. I imagine that it depends on the specifics of the case.

I will say that Micha is,

I will say that Micha is, despite our constant denigration, a perfectly pleasant person to spend an evening with.

And I don't want your Bud-lite, Micha.

Tsk-tsk Scott, there you go

Tsk-tsk Scott, there you go with social norms against drinking other people's saliva; how conservative can you get... :dizzy: